Girl Gang Craft Podcast Episode #87 “Cheap Old Houses”

Phoebe Sherman interview with Elizabeth Finkelstein

INTRO
Phoebe Sherman

Welcome to the Girl Gang Craft Podcast where we dive in deep to all things business, wellness, creativity, and activism for artists and entrepreneurs. We talk with impactful female driven companies and founders for an inside look at the entrepreneurial experience where you'll come away with tangible steps to elevate your business. Are you ready? I'm your host, Phoebe Sherman, founder of Girl Gang Craft artist and designer, and marketing obsessed. We're here to learn together how to expand our revenue, implement new organizational techniques, and cultivate best business practices as we work towards creating a life doing what we love. Let's get started.

Hello. Hello, Phoebe here. Welcome back to Girl Gang Craft the podcast. Today we have Elizabeth Finkelstein from Cheap Old Houses. She is a huge deal. And we're going to dive right into all the amazing things that she does and has done. Just a quick little check in today. We are a little bit more than halfway through June, and we have just had our Providence show. We've had our Sacramento show, and we are moving into deep summer with our two Salem shows and our Sacramento show in August. So that is July 27th for Salem and June 22nd for Salem. So we hope you come on by. If you are in the New England area. And then we have our snack event at the Crocker Museum, August 8th, Multicar a little bit of a pause and then we'll go into our winter craft fair season. Yeah, I hope you RSVP to all the events. I hope you show up. Come say hi. I will be holding it down on the East Coast with the California team holding it down on the West Coast, and it's a good time all the way around.

If you could call us up, would you? Why don't you call us up, ask us anything, gotten questions about taxes? We've gotten questions about manufacturing. You can ask about wholesale. You could ask about craft, fair tips, whatever you want to ask, please call us up. And our number is (413) 961-0855. No one's going to answer the phone. It's going to lead you right to a voicemail which I'm sure you love. Ask us anything. Make sure you give us your name if you want that to be shared. Maybe your business name, and we'll be sure to include all of that in the next episode where we answer your question. And if I can't answer your question, maybe we'll bring someone on to answer your question. And with that, let's just hop in to this interview. This is a big deal, you guys. Elizabeth Finkelstein and her husband, Ethan, are the creators and founders of the popular Instagram account Cheap Old Houses, which has grown to over 2.8 million followers. 2.8 y'all. Together they restore historic homes on the HGTV series Who's Afraid of a Cheap Old House? Elizabeth grew up in an 1850s home lovingly restored by her parents, or her love for crown molding and peeling wallpaper runs in her gene pool. She holds a master's degree in historic preservation and has put years of professional work restoring old houses while not selling or nurturing the vast and wonderful cheap old house community. The couple spends time restoring their own cheap old farmhouse, a little slice of heaven they snagged for a cool 77,000 Carry what? Who's Afraid of a Cheap Old House Tuesday on HGTV? Let's get into it and make sure you follow us on social at Girl Gang Craft or me personally at Phoebe Sherman. Subscribe to our newsletter for all of our goodies, like our Craft fair checklist and just keeping you updated on artists opportunities, branding opportunities, our podcast and like what's new in our Feminist Small Biz collection on our site? Okay, let's get into it.

Hello. Hello. Oh, hey, Elizabeth, welcome to the Girl Gang Craft podcast.

Elizabeth
Hi. Thank you for having me.

Phoebe
Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you and hear a little bit about your story. Do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Elizabeth
Yes, my name is Elizabeth Finkelstein and I am the owner of well, I own a few things. Cheap old houses. I'm the host of the HGTV show Who's Afraid of a Cheap Old House? I run an Instagram feed. We have about 3 million followers, almost at Cheap Old Houses. And I also run a website called CircaOldHouses.com that features real estate listings of historical homes for sale all over the country. So we're sort of all things in the old house restoration space.

Phoebe
How on earth did you get started in this specific space?

Elizabeth
Well, I got started when I was like in the womb. My parents always loved old houses. This is truly a story of honestly, just following my passion. I feel like this was always what I was meant to do, and no one ever starts a business thinking they're going to call it cheap old houses and make a ton of money. So I think if I can do it, so can everybody else.

Phoebe
How did you get started in the womb? What was your sort of indoctrination into the Cheap Old Houses and restoring historical homes.

Elizabeth
My parents raised me in a cheap old house, but they restored somewhat with their own two hands, hiring out when it was necessary as a child in an old house. It was just pure magic. I had nooks, I had crannies, I had secret rooms. It was just fuel for the imagination. And I watched my parents relationship really bond and grow and strengthen through their love for this house and this house, it was a very old house. We were part of each story and it was really a part of ours. It was part of our identity as a family that we were stewards of this beautiful old house that meant so much to the town and meant so much to us. I was married in that house. My sister was married in the house. When my parents sold the house, it was a lot. It was a lot to see happen. I felt like it was really a piece of me. And I knew that when my husband and I were going to be looking for our first house, I wanted something with character. I wanted something that felt like that house. All the houses are just in our blood, in our genes, and I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding about old houses in the world. Thanks to a few select films called The Money Pit and other things like that. But I think the media portrayal of old houses has been a little bit unfair to them. Whereas I think in so many ways they are so important, not just to the homeowners, but to the communities that feel that they belong to them and they're part of their fabric. It was important to us that we started a business that they could sustain our family, but also could do really good for the world. My husband comes from a digital design background. He really had the sort of chops to be able to say, let's make this a digital platform and how to speak to new audiences, younger audiences about something that historically, I think there's something new and fresh about restoring old houses. This is something that's been around a very long time, but to engage a new generation in it was a fresh and interesting approach, and especially to start it on social media, which is what we did. So we started this website circa Circa Old houses.com, where we showcase real estate listings for sale all over the country. And then as a spinoff, I started a little Instagram feed called Cheap Old Houses, where I would just throw the fixer upper because I love the fixer uppers, and that kind of spun off on its own and really took off. And that was just purely for me and Ethan, my husband, who runs this with me. It was playing in the sandbox. It was just like, let's do something really fun and see where it goes. And I feel like those sandbox moments are so critical to every small business owner, because it's so easy to get caught up in the day to day admin of what you do, but you have to leave a little time to just play an experiment, not for the sake of making money. And those are usually the things that take off.

Phoebe
I haven't heard the sandbox term. I love that so much. That is so fun because, I mean, it's so important to follow what interests you and follow those moments of sandbox play where the world sort of falls around behind you and like, that's where you have the most creative energy, and that energy is contagious from folks around you.
Elizabeth
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think if that's where the things that are really fun, I think people want to have fun. People want to look at your business. And there's so much in the world right now to be worried about. Right? I think people like to look at something that feels like an escape. And if it's fun for you and it feels like a sandbox moment for you, it's going to feel like that for someone else as well.

Phoebe
So why do you think it was so well received? What do you think was sort of the timing or your passion behind that? I mean, all of it.

Obviously we can't pinpoint the exact secret formula, but I think it was really timely. Also.

Elizabeth
I think there's a few things that make it work. One is that we're all feeling really frustrated about being able to afford a house right now, so there's just a greater situation going on in the world, and that it struck a pain. Point two is that it's something I really strongly believe in. I think if this were just something that I was looking to make money off of, it would get. Unless I continue to make money and see that number increase every day, that's motivation. But there are plenty of days in every small business when that just doesn't happen. And you have to love it anyway. And so I think because I care so much about it, it always feels like work. I mean, work is work. And I'm not going to sugarcoat the idea that if you do something you love, it's never going to feel like work. It often feels like work. It usually feels like work, but there is a greater mission behind it that motivates me every day, and I think that's really important. I think people this generation, especially the generation on Instagram, which was really the platform we grew on the generation of Instagram, is extremely design savvy. This is a generation that doesn't just want cookie cutter things, they want things that define them, that are, quite frankly, also good for the world, good for the planet. Right? Like everything we're sold today in the world of design is disposable. But being a steward of an old house, when you feel like you're actually nurturing something and it's not contributing to the landfills, there's sort of that bigger picture, too. And I think, honestly, if I were to say the one thing the most secret to the success of what we're doing, I just kept at it. I think that so many people quit too soon. We have a lot of copycat accounts, a lot of people cheap, all this people, and they start and then three months later they stop. And I think that you really have to just keep going, because you're never going to know what your audience wants. You're never going to learn as you go. That is just too soon to really know. So I think all of those things together is really what made it work.

Phoebe
Yeah, I think that makes sense, all of that. But I think specifically the fact that it's so hard to afford a house and then being able to see that these houses are available for under 150 K, and they can put maybe another 100, 150 K, and that's still way below, I mean, what our average is at like 350 or something, which is still feels very low on the low side of things. Right? It's doable. It feels doable. And I think a lot of our community, like you said, our feeling into this handiness feeling into their esthetically excited and want sustainable practices. So I think all of those things that you touched on are really key and important right now. So a lot of our community.

Elizabeth
I think definitely, yeah, I feel really good about this brand every day, and I think that's really important. I wake up every day feeling like, okay, I'm putting something out into the world that means a lot to me and I feel like is a good thing. So that's very important.

Phoebe
What was that path like? You also have historical conservation or restoration background, right? It's not the right.

Elizabeth
Yeah. No, my background is in historic preservation. That's my master's degree. And I worked in New York City in advocacy. It was a desk job, but I would work with homeowners on appropriate alterations to their historic buildings. We would advocate to get buildings landmarked. We would be at rallies fighting for a building not to get torn down because it had some sort of significance. It's quite different than what I do now, actually. Interestingly enough, I definitely find now I live in a rural environment. We moved to upstate New York, where there are also lots of old houses, but the problem here is that people can't afford to fix them up, or they just live in an old house because that was passed down to them from their grandmother, and they have no choice. And that's just the housing stock here. It's a different education than in a major city where everybody's fighting for a piece of it and everybody wants it, and there's development pressure from all angles. There's very, very different issues. So that's been very interesting. And I think they talk about with any career just putting your 10,000 hours in and I've seen old house restoration. Now at this point I've been doing this for so long. I've seen it from so many different angles. I understand so many different perspectives on it, and every time I give an interview, the person has a slightly different lean or different interest. And it gets me to sort of think in a different way about what it is that I'm doing and have a different conversation about it. I think when you start to regurgitate the same talking points about your business over and over and over, we love situations where we're talking to somebody, maybe in the world of business or maybe in the world of we talked to the other day at a panel about the world of film, about our television show, and just hearing about the film industry and our place in that. I think that's the really fun thing about it for me is it continues to evolve because you realize that everything you're doing, it's really just not the niche you're in. But it can have many tentacles and it can have many influences, and that's really fun for me. Sorry, that was a complete tangent from where that question started.

Phoebe
But we love tangents. That's okay.

Elizabeth
That's right man, I'm very good at them.

Phoebe
Now, when you come into a new house, how do you approach it? What is sort of the key things that you think about when you are fixing up a house?

Elizabeth
100%. I look at the house itself. I am not there to impose my personal taste on this house. I'm there to look at the house and the bones of the house and what we can preserve and what we can bring back, and the language of that house itself. So I would not approach a mid-century modern house in the same way that I approach a sprawling Queen and Victorian from 1888. They're not the same language. I don't believe in going in, and I am not an interior designer in the sense that I have a look and I have something I put on every house, and it works. I do not believe that I go in and I look at what the house is telling me. So a lot of what we do on our television show is just uncovering is just taking off the drop ceilings, or taking up the carpet, or peeling back the layers and trying to bring the house back. So to me, it is all about listening to the house and what the original intention of that house was, I think always works best. So we approach everything from the perspective of history and the character of the house, and we try very hard to work with the house, not against the house. I think that's when you get into trouble. It's when you try to fight it.

Phoebe
Where are some of your favorite places to source things for the house?

Elizabeth
It's all vintage sourcing. Vintage is my favorite. We're big fans of Etsy Marketplace, huge flea market, but especially salvage yards for the type of work we do. Architectural salvage is huge. Most major cities, small towns as well. Some of them have architectural salvage yards or companies where a house will be demolished and someone will go in and be responsible for taking all the stuff out, and then they can resell it. So, for instance, my husband and I are restoring our own farmhouse that we purchased for $70,000. This house sadly had been gutted when we bought it. It was a wreck. The exterior was intact but the inside had been totally gutted. The floors were plywood, there was just weird drywall hacked all over the walls and insulation sticking out. And our job is to bring it back to the late 1700s. We found a pair of mantels now to custom make them. We would have been well into the thousands and we got them for a pair for $600. And they are the real deal. They're 300 years old and they're going to look correct in this house. So architectural salvage all the way.

Phoebe
And how do you pair this with modern aspects? My husband does insulation and HVAC. So he also goes into old houses all the time. And it's like subsidized here in Massachusetts. So he often gets it like completely paid for by the state. He was sort of like, oh, where are the modern touches to? Like, how do those things pair together when you're working on a house?

Elizabeth
Yeah, some people want to live in a museum and some people don't. We always say respect to the bones of the house. Anything that's fixed to the house, preserve it or leave it. But whatever you put in your house should reflect you. And if you want to have all modern furniture in there, you go for it. That stuff is movable. That stuff will travel with you. I mean, remember that even let's say you live in a house from 1880. Quite likely, whoever moved into that house in 1880 did not furnish it with all 1880s furniture. They probably brought with them their grandmother's stuff, their mother stuff, collected things. It probably felt much more organic than that. So it wouldn't make sense even today, to restore a house from 1880 with just 1880 furniture. Right? That makes the house feel, I think it doesn't feel living or breathing or alive. It feels stale. I am all about collecting things and putting them. And I mean, you'll notice on our television show houses that we restore the furnishings are not to the period. The furnishings are very much just like belong to the homeowner. It's very collected. And I think that's the sort of art to making that happen. I mean, the space I'm sitting in right now is actually, it's my friend Cristiana who works with us, and her house was featured on last night's episode of Who's Afraid of a Cheap Old House? We restored this church for her. And behind me, yes, there's a giant cabinet from the period of the church, but there's also a mid-century kind of globe that lights up at super wonky and cool, and there's a pool table behind that. And so I think the modernity comes in the furnishings, in the way that you choose to decorate the space with your own personal touches.

Phoebe
And you obviously like put electricity in houses that didn't have electricity.

Elizabeth
Absolutely. Oh yeah, I no, all that stuff. I'm not advocating for you to cook over an open flame. No, you need a modern kitchen. But when you think about kitchens, I would advise you to look at the period of the house and think, okay, what was the language of the house? Were the cabinets in that period generally to the ceiling? What kind of materials did they use? What kind of hardware did they use? You don't have to replicate it exactly. But I think in order to make the rooms flow together and make it feel as timeless as possible, understand the language of that period before you go breaking all the rules. You can break them once you know them, but you should know what you're working with, I think, and that's the best way to make it, so that you don't walk from a parlor that feels quite 1860 into like, oh, here's 1983 in the kitchen. That's the mistake a lot of people making old houses.

Phoebe
Yeah, that makes sense. I want to hear a little bit about how the TV show came to be. What was that process like?

Elizabeth
The TV show? Anytime you have a successful Instagram account, I think you're going to get a lot of production companies reaching out to you and saying, oh my gosh, I want to pitch you to it to a network. And some can, some can. There's a lot of them out there that happened to us for a very long time. It took us a while to find a production company that we felt really understood us. A lot of them wanted us to just flip houses or kind of speak in a language that I think just doesn't feel authentic to us. I mean, it's a little bit funny that we're on HGTV because in a sense, I think that we don't generally advocate for like quick restorations, which is a lot of what ends up on television a lot. So we had to work really hard to figure out a way to make a show that felt very us, but also appeal to that bigger audience. And I think we've straddled that line really, really well. The network has been great. They've allowed us to do our thing and to really showcase restoration in a way that I think often doesn't get represented on these shows. It's a lot of product placement, it's a lot of newer is better, and if you don't own this thing or you can afford this thing, then you're never going to have the thing. And I think that we try really hard to give you permission that like, okay, old house restoration is a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's going to take a long time. We might not get to every room on the show, but we're going to get to a lot of them and we're going to stretch your budget as far as we can go, and we're going to talk about that. I think it's a very refreshing take on it. I hope it's resonating with people.

BREAK

Phoebe
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Phoebe
So I would love to hear about you advocating for yourself, and maybe some ways that you sort of psych yourself up for some of these conversations.

Elizabeth
Now, I think you have to be really strong in knowing what is very important to you, and your integrity really has to show up. When you make a television show, you think about it. First of all, it's making a show which is production, which is a whole thing. There are times in life when it's about making the show, but on top of making a show, you're also restoring a house. So you have the whole restoration crew. There are times when the TV timelines are at odds with the restoration timelines and things like that. So there's a lot of negotiation that has to take place, and you have to be extremely strong. There are sacrifices you certainly have to make, but you have to know what is a non-negotiable for you. And I think for us, the house always came first. So we have to respect the house. And that's a complete non-negotiable. So I think that you have to be strong in your integrity and your beliefs and what you know that you're bringing to the table with your brand. And I think that our show benefited from everybody kind of come in there with their A-game and making that happen.

Phoebe
Would you say that you're sort of the bridge between the designer and the folks who are constructing things and the production crew? Are you sort of like balancing it all and communicating with them?

Elizabeth
Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think at the end of the day, the show is about cheap old houses and we all need each other. It's a very expensive endeavor to put together a television show, so the network is putting up funding for it, which is incredible. The homeowners are bringing money to the table. Our designer is doing her job, we have an architectural designer and he's doing his job. And then the production company is hiring everybody and making sure the whole thing happens, and flying out crew and getting the cameramen and feeding everybody, putting everybody up in hotels. It's a huge thing. So there's no way that something like this could ever, ever exist in a bubble or by ourselves. So it is 100% a team effort. It's a huge, huge kind of undertaking, for sure. You see the four of us on camera and then the homeowners, but behind the scenes is just a very large production going on. They make it look very sweet and seamless on camera, but like any old house restoration, there are definitely challenges along the way.

Phoebe
What has been the most fruitful, exciting thing that has happened because of the TV show?

Elizabeth
First of all, bringing restoration to television. I don't think there's enough of it out there and I feel extremely honored. That's something that's very important to me is getting a national platform. So there's that, and I'm very grateful to the network and our production company for allowing that to happen, meaning homeowners allowing to push their budgets even further. I mean, the network kicks in a little money, the homeowner has some money, and then we've worked with incredible brands that have donated their time, their labor and their products to these houses, which allows these people to kind of move their restorations even further, which is amazing. One of the things I love about our show is that we don't lie and say that we order everything from big box stores. We really do go to small businesses. We talk about the small businesses, we show local craftsmen. And honestly, probably my favorite part of this is getting to show those kind of businesses with the backing of a national platform, which is priceless. So I think those are the things that are the most satisfying for me.

Phoebe
I love that. What is it like working with your husband?

Elizabeth
Oh my gosh, it's so funny. We've been working together forever, and I feel like all these couples that suddenly during Covid found themselves working together, were like, “oh my gosh, what am I going to do?” And I'm like, we've literally been working together for so long right now. We're so good at it. At this point, I think that I will admit in the beginning it was very hard to kind of figure out who's doing what. Who's the boss. And it took us a long time to kind of establish our roles. I think we now, after so many years of doing it, we have a much clearer understanding of our roles. My advice to any couples that are thinking of working together. Give yourself a little time. We also have children and I'm like, I know that first year of having a baby, you probably deeply resent each other for many, many reasons and you will get through it like one of you will eventually sleep again and you'll realize that it's just the time.

Phoebe
One of you will sleep again.

Elizabeth
Whenever you sleep again, right? I know, I do think that you will figure it out. I feel like we're at a point where we have really figured it out, and it's now just what we do. I don't even feel like I work with my husband. I'm just like, this is just what we do. This is our life. This is very much in our lives now. I am so grateful that I get to work with him, because what we do is very time consuming, and I get to do it with him. And I got to when we filmed our first season, we got to travel around the country together in this beautiful truck, and it was so much fun. So honestly, from the perspective of a marriage, I get to spend all my time with my favorite person and that is extremely, extremely gratifying. And it's oh my gosh, like the bond that we have because we are literally doing everything together as we bring different things to the table. If it were up to me, I would probably just be sitting in a library all day researching, and I love to get in my rabbit holes of research, and I love to do that. And he is very big picture. So he really brings the business angle to the table. And I bring this sort of love for the old houses. And I think that as a team, it's so important. I could never do this on my own. I could never do this on my own. So having somebody at the end of the day who fully understands all of the excitement and challenges and what owning a business and running a family does is priceless. I'm so, so lucky. I'm really lucky.

Phoebe
Okay, I want to talk about pricing. I want to talk about ways to make this work because we can get a mortgage for your house, right? What are some of those other ways that you can get funding for restoring old houses?

Elizabeth
Yeah. So there are specific loans that are specific to renovation or restoration. So if you're buying a house that is in a state where you can't live in it yet or it just won't qualify for a traditional mortgage because there's no kitchen or when I there are specific rental loans. And some of these are very specific to place. We wrote a book and we chronicled 25 different homeowners called Cheap Old Houses An Unconventional Guide to Loving and Restoring a Forgotten Home. And we chronicle 25 different homeowners that have done this. And they've all done it in very different ways. Some of them got a rental loan one of our staff members actually lease in Detroit, Michigan. She took advantage of a first time homebuyers program where she had to put 0% down to buy the house. Depending on where you live, there are opportunities. I think one of the things we try to remind people is that when you're buying a cheap old house and I can't say this for every cheap old house, because there are certainly houses that are just cheap, because the cost of living in that area is cheap. And you might not be buying a major fixer upper, it's just in a place that has a lower cost of living. And so the real estate is cheaper. But if you're buying a major fixer upper, if you're going to apply for traditional financing and then get discouraged and stop, I think you're approaching it wrong. I think you have to understand that traditional financing, not qualifying for traditional financing, might be just part of the process, and that's just something you have to work through. But if you have a very low closing cost, you have so much more money to be able to put in to make it work down the road. I don't know that I would truly suggest if you are strapped for cash, I don't know that it's a great investment to buy a major fixer upper in a very expensive area where labor is high, and if you have a job where you're in the office all the time and cannot work on the house, I don't know that that's the best decision. I think that you have to look at your own personal situation and understand, are you handy? Do you have time? If you don't have time, can you pay someone? How much is labor where you live? How much of the house needs to be done right away? How much doesn't a lot of people move into an old house and they think they have to do everything right away? That is absolutely not the case. You can live with an ugly kitchen for ten years and you will survive. You will save up your money. Not everything is going to be an Instagram swipe right away. If there are major foundational issues that are affecting the structure of the building, you have to fix those. If there are water issues you have to fix, those other things can be done slowly. I mean, most of these houses, even some of the ones I show, they're in horrible condition, even abandoned for 15 years, they're still standing there still. Okay, so I think you also have to be very patient with yourself and realize that not everything has to be done right away.

Phoebe
I love it, and we're so used to instant gratification on so many things. Even like, I live in an apartment and I put some loving energy into painting fun things, and I only have a certain amount of time to do each room. It's not going to all happen at once. Even all your life buying and the way that you're displaying things and your furniture finds. And I do a lot of vintage too. Like you have to wait for that perfect piece to come across a Facebook marketplace. It takes time and it is funny right? Watching these TV shows where it comes together in an hour. And we have to remember that these things take time.

Elizabeth
As the host of one of those TV shows, I can tell you that. Don't believe everything you see on television. I think that that makes great entertainment, and it's important to inspire people by doing that. But I would never want people to believe that it actually happens in an hour. I mean, there's months and months of production going on behind those scenes, but that would make a very boring television show.

Phoebe
How does that work? Are you working on multiple houses at once, and then production kind of visits all these houses and you're doing different stages. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Elizabeth
Yeah. So for this series we did a pilot, which is actually the house I'm sitting in right now is the first one we did. And that's where you kind of your team comes together for the first time, and you figure it all out when you really are focusing on one house at a time, and then, yes, for the other seven. We did eight together. They are being worked on at the same time, which is something that I think the television industry is just fascinating. I have learned so much about it and how it all goes down. Some of it gets filmed out of sequence, so they might be like, bring an outfit from this episode because we have to pick up the scene. So the restoration work is still happening. It's still moving in the timeline of a restoration, but the way it's filmed is sometimes out of sequence, which is just kind of funny to see a piece together. If you look really closely, you'll be like, your hair was different five seconds ago. It's snowing in the background for a second. It's kind of funny.

Phoebe
So how are you balancing it all, working on eight houses at a time and filming a television show? And I assume you're still running your Instagram? And how are you managing all of these pieces?

Elizabeth
Well, we have an amazing staff and honestly, if it were not for them, there is absolutely no way we could do this. Cristiana, who's actually whose church I'm sitting in right now, has been with us from the very beginning, and she is a powerhouse. She's amazing and she works with us very closely on the work we do on a day to day basis, and also on the show. She was even part of production when that was going on, also lending her house to be the pilot episode. Lisa Hanley, who has a chapel house in Detroit who runs our newsletter that sustains us and allow us to we have subscription newsletters for cheap old houses that make us money. And then we have Alex Adams, who runs Circa Old Houses, and she's incredible. She keeps that ship sailing all the time, even when we're out with production. And then we have a producer, Kim, who helps us with some digital design projects and also running our whole book tour. And honestly, we could not do it all. I it's hard. It's hard when you have a business to be able to trust, entrust it to other people. But honestly, without them they're just an incredible that's the ticket. That's the thing that you have to have people, you know, and you have to have people you trust them. You have to be able to say, I'm going to hand this to you because I can't do everything.

Phoebe
Do your kids get involved in the process?

Elizabeth
Yes and no. Everyone who is a public figure, I think, has a different approach to their kids and how much they show their kids. I am of the belief that my kids have no part in this publicly, but I am of the belief also that I grew up in a restoration project and sort of from the perspective of all houses, I very much want my kids to see the sort of value that comes from it and have that kind of understanding. I feel like it was a gift my parents gave me to do that. So they are always involved in the work that we're doing behind the scenes. For sure.

Phoebe
Do they enjoy it?

Elizabeth
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Although, to be fair, when I was a little kid, I was like, do we have to go to one more antique shop? And now it's like Mother's Day comes along and I call my mom. I'm like, where are we going? Antiquing. It comes around. They're eight and nine, so they're kind of into right now, like unicorns and Taylor Swift and that kind of stuff.

Phoebe
Fair enough. So what are some ways that you take care of yourself when things get really wild and busy?

Elizabeth
Oh my gosh, I don't know that I have the perfect answer to that. I think Grace Bonnie, who ran Design Sponge, she doesn't anymore, but Design Sponge was one of the first kind of design blogs that were out there, and I was a huge follower in the beginning. I remember her one time talking about the idea of work life balance and how work life balance is really just every day, a series of little decisions you make to try to balance her days. There's not a grand plan that you're missing out on or anybody has it figured out. And I think that's truly what it is. It's waking up every day. And how do I feel? And how can I make this day feel stronger? And how can I get little moments in with my kids and I'm going to need and I think looking at it that way makes you feel better about the days when you're like, I just have to devote this whole day to work. And that's just the reality of it. And I know that there's a finite time to this is a television show is very, very, very, very intense. And then it's not. It's the kind of thing I mean, truly, my parents are a godsend. Are they babysat for months while I did that? That's a huge lift. And I really hand it to anyone who is a parent and has their own business. It is not easy. I'm not saying I would trade it for anything. I love them, but it can often feel like you've got two ships steering in opposite directions. And I remember when we were filming our first series and it was really hard for me. It was very hard for me to be away from my son. We have two our niece recently came to live with us, so I say that we have kids now, but for a long time we had an only child and I was very sad. I miss him, I miss him very much and I remember I came to a point a couple months in where I said to myself, look, Elizabeth, there is no balance to be had here. You're either with him or you're not. And you better enjoy this because otherwise, why are you even doing it? I kind of gave myself the permission to say, okay, you're going to get back with him in two months and you're going to get through this. That was a pivotal moment in my head where I said, look, I mean work life balance. It's not where every day you have perfect balance. It might be balance over three months or a month and a half, very focused on work and a month and a half. You're very focused on your kids, and that's just the way having your own business works. And I think that is a relief to realize that if there are days where you're just in it and you're in it and you're in it, it will end, it will end. You will get that time with your children again. And it did. It did. He doesn't hate me for that. He doesn't even remember it.

Phoebe
Do you have any hobbies outside of antiquing and restoring all the houses?

Elizabeth
Oh my gosh, I took ukulele lessons this year. That's something I've wanted to do for a long time. I've kind of made my hobby my job. I love antiquing, I like love to do that. I love to rearrange my house. I'm kind of a homebody. I'm kind of an introvert. I love to read, I have friends, I just love to sort of connect with my friends. And I'm trying to think if I have any, like, weird hobbies. I feel like my weird hobby became my career. My time is very, very taken up. As soon as I get done working for the day, I'm in parent mode. I have a lot of juggling to do for sure, so finding the time for hobbies like extra strange hobbies. At this time in my life, I don't know if it's the season.

Phoebe
I love the ukulele thing though. Did you enjoy learning ukulele?

Elizabeth
Yes.

Phoebe
Oh my gosh, you play?

Elizabeth
Not very many. I'm a beginner. I took piano when I was younger, but I've never played a string instrument before and I've always loved the sound of the ukulele. It has a very vintage sound about it. We try to take a big vacation every year, just travel and get out. I think it's very easy when you're in your own business to feel like you can't take time away. And I remember the first time we took a vacation and we said, okay, if we lose 5% of our income this month, it's totally fine. It always is. You'll always bounce back. It's worth it to get away, to have that perspective and make those memories, I don't know. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, what are my other weird hobbies? I don't know.

Phoebe
It's like, maybe you've turned your hobby into your career. I think that's okay.

Elizabeth
Yeah.No, I really have.

Phoebe
So what advice do you have for I guess general entrepreneurs like sort of at the beginning stages of their business, if they want to sort of open themselves to opportunities like TV shows or writing books or any other major things, what are some advice to sort of attract those opportunities?

Elizabeth
Yeah, I think put yourself out there. It doesn't have to be expensive to put yourself out there. If you want to start a company, you don't have to have the perfect website. You don't have to have all the bells and whistles from the gecko. You just have to start somewhere. And if that's getting a free social media handle and starting to post, do that. I think a lot of people, maybe because of a lack of confidence, they feel that they they can't put themselves out there until they have all that stuff. But that stuff can be very expensive to make a website. It can be very expensive. All these things, you just need to do it anyway. You just need to start in some capacity and don't quit. Just keep at it, keep at it, keep at it. I've seen a lot of people that don't have honestly like a ton of talent or something. You don't necessarily have to have something super interesting to say, but they've just been at it for so long that they've now got a following. I think also really listen to your audience and build that trust and focus less on. Everybody wants to make a viral post. Everybody wants those clicks, those numbers. I am so grateful. I am more grateful that I have gained trust of my audience. And I can say something and they will listen to me than that I've had X, Y, and Z post go viral. I'm much less concerned about that and much more concerned with I guess just knowing that I have influence and that I will be heard if I say something. I think another thing is it's very important to build your brand on social media. I think social media is great. It is not the only thing. And I think I'm extremely grateful that I own my own mailing list. We started on Instagram. We have all these people on Instagram, and there are days when Instagram just decides they're going to show our post ten people. Even though we have 3 million followers. And if I can't communicate with my audience, that's a problem. So we've been working very hard to collect email addresses. Email is so much stronger. Anything we do over email is always so much more successful than anything we do on social media, because everybody sees it. They get the same hierarchy in their inbox, and that tends to be so much more successful. So sometimes with sexy things that you think where you're going to get the clicks and the viral things are not the most impactful and the most important. So if you are not the right fit for TikTok or Twitter, they're all different, right? And they all speak to different people. Know what works for you and be confident in that. It's very easy to compare yourself to other people. Just know your audience. Know what your audience wants to hear from you, and find a way to communicate with them consistently and effectively. It's a very boring advice, but it's true.

Phoebe
We love an email list. We love an email. We're always talking about an email list. Now you heard it here, folks. And you have a free email list and a paid for email list, right?

Elizabeth
Yes. So we have subscription newsletters for cheap old houses. We have newsletters specific to cheap old farmhouses, cheap old houses abroad, ultra cheap houses under $25,000, and then cheap-ish old houses and more expensive parts of the country that are still kind of cheap. And then we have a free e-newsletter where we'll send you a recap of everything we showed on Instagram that week, and other sort of general news about things we're doing, our show promos. We have, we sell merch, that kind of stuff. So that's all kind of on that free newsletter list. And you can sign up for any of that at cheapoldhouses.com

Phoebe
Amazing. Okay, this has been so lovely. Where can people find you cheap old houses.com. Where can we watch your show?

Elizabeth
Cheap old houses.com on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok at cheap old houses. And then we have our book that sold to all major booksellers, which you can also find at cheap old houses.com. And we are on HGTV every Tuesday through July 2nd at 7 p.m. eastern time, coming to streaming eventually. We don't have a date yet. For now, it's just on cable.

Phoebe
Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth
Thank you so much, Phoebe.

OUTRO

Phoebe
Thank you so much for listening to the Girl Gang Craft Podcast. Head to Girlgangcraft.com/podcast for shownotes and more. See you next time.